Leadership is Lonely- but Stay in the Fight

Leadership Is Lonely

The Weight Nobody Sees

Everyone wants to be the leader.

Few people want the weight that comes with it.

From the outside, leadership often looks glamorous. People see the title, the office, the freedom, the paycheck, or the success. What they don't see are the sleepless nights, the difficult conversations, the financial pressure, or the constant responsibility.

Leadership isn't lonely because people don't surround you.

It's lonely because there are very few people who truly understand what you're carrying.

That's what Shaun Boen and I unpack in Episode 11 of the Built on Solid Rock Podcast.

The Higher You Climb, the Smaller the Circle

Every promotion changes your relationships.

As a leader, there are conversations you simply can't have anymore.

You can't vent to your employees about another employee.

You can't share every financial concern.

You can't always explain every decision.

You can't allow your uncertainty to become everyone else's fear.

The higher you climb, the fewer people understand what you're carrying.

Leadership often means smiling through burdens that no one else even knows exist.

The Decisions Nobody Applauds

The hardest leadership decisions rarely receive applause.

Hiring someone.

Letting someone go.

Saying no to an opportunity.

Choosing long-term health over short-term comfort.

Protecting the company instead of protecting your popularity.

Employees often see the outcome.

Leaders live through the process.

Sometimes you'll make the right decision and still lose friendships.

Sometimes you'll do everything you can for someone, only to become the villain in their story.

Leadership requires making peace with being misunderstood.

The Paycheck Is Public. The Pressure Is Private.

People often assume successful business owners have it easy.

They see revenue.

They don't see payroll.

They see growth.

They don't see the personal guarantees signed with the bank.

They see confidence.

They don't see the nights wondering how everyone will get paid if business slows down.

Every entrepreneur knows this feeling.

When business is thriving, everyone celebrates.

When business struggles, the leader carries the burden first.

No one worries about your paycheck quite like you do.

Because you're worried about everyone else's first.

There Is No One to Talk To

One of the hardest realities of leadership is discovering there are very few people you can truly unload on.

Your employees need confidence.

Your customers need stability.

Your family deserves your presence.

Your partners may be carrying the same burdens you are.

Many leaders quietly carry enormous pressure because they don't want to become someone else's burden.

That's why intentional relationships with other leaders matter so much.

Not people who envy leadership.

People who live it.

Because only another leader understands what leadership costs.

Leadership Is Choosing Responsibility Over Comfort

Leadership isn't about having all the answers.

It's about accepting responsibility when no one else can.

When projects fail...

When markets change...

When people leave...

When mistakes happen...

The leader owns it.

That's not weakness.

That's leadership.

Real leaders don't look for someone to blame.

They look for solutions.

Why It's Still Worth It

If leadership is so lonely, why do it?

Because leadership gives you the opportunity to build something that outlives you.

You create jobs.

You develop people.

You solve problems.

You create opportunities for families you'll never fully know.

You help someone discover gifts they didn't know they possessed.

The sacrifices are real.

But so is the impact.

Final Thoughts

Leadership isn't easy.

It was never supposed to be.

The weight is heavy.

The responsibility is constant.

The loneliness is real.

But every thriving company, every great culture, every meaningful organization exists because someone chose responsibility over comfort.

If you're carrying that weight today, you're not alone.

Other leaders understand.

Keep building.

Keep serving.

Keep leading.

Because the world needs more people willing to carry responsibility instead of running from it.

Listen to Episode 11, "Leadership Is Lonely," on the Built on Solid Rock Podcast at https://builtonsolidrock.buzzsprout.com or follow us on your favorite podcast platform.

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John Chisham

Shaun Boen

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey, welcome to the uh Built on Solid Rock podcast. I'm John Chisholm. This is my partner in crime over here, Sean Bowen. How are you doing today, Sean?

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Way better than what I deserve. And you know, if I was any better, I'd have to make a duplicate of myself. No doubt about it, man.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

I mean, just so you could tell yourself how good you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

I know. And that's the one thing I love about myself is how humble I am. Right.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 0:21

That's the best quality of being a leader.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

You want to know who the most humble person in the Bible was?

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Who?

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Moses. Really? Yeah, when he wrote down the Moses was the most humble man that ever lived. You know, remember? I mean, wow, pretty humble guy. Well, we are talking about, we're talking about leadership today. Yeah, leadership. I mean, you just said in the last podcast that you don't read any leadership books or anything like that.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

So all I do is I just listen to you and I learn everything.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Well, I've taught you everything you know, but not everything I know. Oh, there we go. Just yet. Yep. Okay. Just yet. Um I was I was having a conversation actually the other day with with um uh your buddy Jesse. And um, I was talking to him about the loneliest profession, I believe. The loneliest profession is being a pastor. I I really, I really do. I think I think it's the loneliest profession because you're kind of like you're out there on an island. You don't really have, you know, you've got elders, you've got church members and stuff like that, but they're not carrying the same leadership burden you're carrying. And I just think it's I I know because I've been one, I think it's extremely lonely. It's extremely hard to be to be that. I mean, really, I mean, there's there's stuff you just can't talk to people about, right? I mean, it's just and and and and nobody unless you are a pastor, you you can't possibly understand that burden. You can't possibly understand that, you know, that kind of heavy that kind of heaviness. And after this last podcast, it's kind of it's kind of fun. I'm kind of starting out with kind of a kind of a you know, kind of hard, you know, this is kind of hard, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

I know, dude. I was like looking forward to like getting at it, and now it's like, oh boy.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Yeah, well, I'm just saying leadership is lonely, it's also extremely rewarding. There is no if, if, ands, or buts about it. But I mean, but everybody wants to be the leader.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Everybody wants to be the person in charge. We can talk about that. I, you know, like I'll I'll give you an example, man. Um, I think that there's definitely a something within human nature where you do want to be in charge. Um, so we're working on a position right now. It's it's a leadership position with a with a company in the Midwest, uh, looking for a general manager. So in my mind, you know, so I'm calling senior PMs, right? People that are at the top of their game. They've kind of hit that glass ceiling as a high-level PM. And I talked to one guy yesterday, really nice guy. And I was like, dude, I love your background. I've got a leadership position for you. It's a GM role, overseeing an entire division, doing, doing exactly what you're doing now with the leadership title and leadership pay. And we're talking like big pay, like over 200, right? And he started laughing. He's like, bro, he's like, I don't want to be a leader. He's like, I want to do, I don't want all the headaches, I don't want all that stuff. And you and I have been there, right? So, like, I think what you're saying, like, and and it's somewhat hyperbole or hyperbole to an extent, but like, yes, I think that people, um, and leadership is different, right? Like, leadership isn't just being a general manager overseeing the you can be a leader.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

There's a huge difference between being a manager and being a leader.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Well, yeah, we don't have to know, but you can be a leader and be a janitor.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

Yes. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

So like that's where I want to go. Yes. That's where I want to go.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

100%. 100%. Um, but I mean, leadership, leadership is leadership is way more than management. So, like a manager, a manager amen. Yeah, basically says, um, is is a manager of uh uh processes and procedures and do things one, two, three, four in this order, and making sure that, you know, making sure that all these things are done in that order is sort of like what we were talking about before. It's sort of like a manager is more like has more of an employee mindset, okay? He's uh in our in in the in the tradition, the biblical tradition, he's the one stuck in the law, okay? He doesn't understand the gospel, he hasn't been freed yet. He just is he's stuck in the law. A leader is someone that knows the way, goes the way, and then shows the way.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Knows the way, goes the way, and shows the way. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Yeah, yeah. I just came up with that out of my own head, but it wasn't really out of my own head. I read it somewhere, and I'll give you the name of the person who had that quote. But he knows the way, goes the way, and shows the way. That's what a leader, that's what a leader does. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

So we should get that on our wall, dude.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Yeah. I want that on our wall. Okay. Well, I want it written on my heart.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Yeah, well, both, but sometimes you have to look at it and read it. Right. And then it, Lord willing, it'll be imputed.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Right, impuded.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

That's a five-dollar word. So if you're listening, look that one up. Use that one if you're trying to impress a chick or something.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Right, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Right, Levi.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

Look, here's the reality: the higher that you go, the higher that you climb, the fewer people realize what you're carrying and what you're brought to get there. You know, they see the top of the iceberg, but they don't see they don't see the huge roots underneath of the iceberg.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Well, icebergs don't have roots, but uh if you see a picture of an iceberg, it's usually a much larger iceberg.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Two-thirds of it's underwater.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

Yeah, so it's not roots, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Yeah. So I mean, that's just a reality. So let me let me ask you this question because I know that you we you shared before about sometimes you just don't sleep, you just don't sleep in that you're wide awake, your brain, your brain's going a thousand miles an hour. When did leadership stop feeling like really, really exciting and start feeling kind of heavy?

SPEAKER_00 5:47

Well, I I think um there's always, in my opinion, there's always a mixture of that. Like I, you know, in my own experience, like I haven't always wanted to be a leader. I've uh at my previous place of employment, like there were certainly opportunities. At one point in time, I took advantage of that opportunity, but I figured out probably eight years ago that in order to lead, and I have to relate it to what we do, which I think is applicable to a lot of really a lot of other things, but like to what we do is like I think if you desire to lead, you you you there has to be something in there where you really truly want to see people do better than what you do. 100% right like you really want to see people excel and provide for themselves first before you provide for yourself. Like there is uh, in my opinion, there's a sense of that, you know. Um there there's a sense of well, sacrifice, and um, you know, I think that there's always a level of burden, but just because, you know, like like life, like life is full of burdens, it doesn't mean that you're gonna be taken down, right? But there's always a heaviness with that. But it's also, I think we're to the point now, not because of anything necessarily you and I have done outside of bringing on the right people, but when you do get the right people in place, it's like, oh man, like there's six of us carrying this now, right? Instead of two of us, instead of three of us. Like you, you, you know, like now it's like we're all yoked together. We all are going after the same thing. And so that alleviates that burden and makes it easier to kind of push.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

They're all rowing, they're all rowing in the same direction, and they're all going at the same, they're all going to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

Try and roll that, try and roll that boat with like two people, ain't gonna work.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

No, no, no, not that.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

Or try and have the amount of people and you're going in different directions. I mean, these are simple examples, right? But like there is you can look at a picture as simple as that and and s and see at what how does that apply to what we're doing.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Right. When I mean, as a leader, as a leader, you're you're out in front, but also sometimes you're behind. You're you're you're you're behind the slowest person in the group, so that you can bring that, so that you can bring that person along and kind of carry that person along. I mean, in leadership, let me ask you this question. This is because we make decisions, we have to make decisions every day. What's the hardest decision in in your not necessarily in your life, but in your in your leadership roles, whether they, you know, whether they've been in as the owner of as as the owner of the company, obviously, you're you're in a leadership role. What's the hardest decision you've ever had to make?

SPEAKER_00 8:25

I think I just go back to like the quote unquote the early days, and we've only been around for two and a half years, but it seems like we've been doing it for 10 years now.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Um isn't it the life of a recruiter? I mean, you hear about dog ears. I mean, yeah, I mean, I'm 30 years old. Look at me.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

Just a couple gray hairs. No, I mean, I I go back to like kind of like the early days of like, what are we doing? Right. And like, and I think there was probably at least one or two conversations, like we just made that decision to grow, not just number wise, of course, that comes with growth, but also development-wise, which is where I think we're hyper focused right now. Um, and so I think that was one of like the things like, are we gonna do this? Are we gonna take on the level of um burden? Are we gonna take on the level of, you know, back in the day, uh $3,000 a month going out the door for stuff seemed like a lot. Doesn't mean crap anymore, right? Right? It doesn't mean crap anymore. Um, so like I think like some of those like decisions, like, okay, if we're gonna do this, we're doing it. It was and that really wasn't that hard of a decision. It was pretty obvious. Like, we built a great product that we know is gonna be self-sufficient, that is going to produce, that is going to do well over time. And so it was a hard decision, but it's also like the only decision. Right, you know what I mean? It wasn't like we can't just stop here, we have to keep going. Yeah, and that's a tough decision because you you see, like, okay, here's all the variables that come into place, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:51

I mean, building a business is like learning to ride a learning to ride a bike. Yeah, I mean, it really is. I mean, except that the bike's on fire, your shoes are on fire, your shoes are no wheels on it, and there's no yeah, and there's no wheels on it, and the cliff is approaching, yeah, and there's no brakes, right? And your hair's on fire too. Yeah, so that's that's sort of what that's sort of what it's like. I mean, it's you know.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Um I guess I would ask you the same question, because you're on the, you know, we're on the journey together here, but like in your mind, and whether it's here or anything else you've done in life, but maybe just for the sake of the podcast and the context of what we talk about, I'll guess I'll ask the same question.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

The hardest, the hardest decision I've ever made is the same as the easiest decision I've ever made. And that was and and that was leaving the former country company to to um to build a business at age 59. I mean, I literally did look at myself a couple times in the mirror, and then I started I said this.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

How'd that go?

SPEAKER_01 10:42

I was like, I was like, wow, what a good looking guy.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

What a stud.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

No wonder people love me. Yeah. So no, but I mean, in all seriousness, that was the hardest decision and the easiest decision. It was the easiest decision because of the be because of the culture. There was, yeah, well, there's no and there was no other place to go.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

You can go sell cars again. Right. Yeah. What am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? And car sales is a great trade if you're good at it. Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

I mean, if I wasn't a recruiter, I'd be out picking rocks right now. I mean, let's let's just be let's just be real. But um, but it it where it was an easy decision to make was also extremely difficult because you think about the you do as a leader, and you really have nobody to talk to about this. As a leader, as an entrepreneur, you really have a lot of questions, a lot more questions than you do answers. But that's where in in our Christian faith as well as in entrepreneurship, it's the same thing. You you trust, you just know that there's something better out there, and you know that you you know that you have to go out and you have to find out about and you have to grab it. You you leap and then you look.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

You just you I love that that you know did you come up with that or did you read that in a book?

SPEAKER_01 11:50

That one, that one I think I just came up with just now.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

Can we verify that? Yeah, who's the what's Joe Rogan's guy's name? Do you guys know his name? Jesse. Is it Jesse? Jamie. Hey Jamie, can you verify that quick? Put it up on the screen.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

But quite literally, I've said to I've said to my wife, I said, Why in the world at age 59 would I go out and and do this? This is truly scary. I mean, what if? But then I've already I already took the leap. I already the leap was taken years before that. I I can't, I didn't have a parachute on. It was all I was already on the way down. I can't change my mind and go back and put the parachute on. I have to, I have to do that first. But that's not the way that we do things, right? We we we leap, we leap before we look.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

Yeah, and I want to throw something in there. And and you know, we see this like, you know, right now, and we're not gonna get into politics in this episode, but I do want to just point out one thing. Like, so we you know, we've got governor races going on, um mayoral races, all and not just in South Dakota, all over, but it is so unique. And I and I like watching these candidates, I don't care what party that they're from, it doesn't matter. I don't care like what the polls are showing, all of them are confident. And that's one thing I respect about both parties. Like, even if a guy's polling at 5%, he's like, when I'm your next governor, when I'm your next governor, when I'm your next mayor. And I I love that because as a leader or as a person, like I don't want to hear uh somebody saying, like, hey, if I win, if I win, you know, and it's like I and there's this level of confidence that I think that that that we carried over. And once again, this isn't patting ourselves on the back. Like, I want to give people uh a holistic uh idea of like what like what does this look like? And it's not to say we've accomplished we certainly haven't accomplished everything that we want, we're not even freaking close to that. Not yet. But but I just go back to that time because you you had your own sacrifices, I had my own sacrifices, but I know that in our mind at that time there was a hundred percent confidence. Yet we were gonna make it yet, there's always self-doubt. And as long as we're in this in these flesh and bones, there's always gonna be self-doubt. But there was a hundred percent confidence that we are going to do this, and that's where we're going.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

Right. Well, I mean, so let me so we talk to our we we talk to our leaders about this all the time, but how do great leaders stay calm when everything around them isn't? When everything's on, when everything it seems like is on fire. Yeah, how do you how do you stay calm?

SPEAKER_00 14:18

Which this is every day of our business, right? Every day it it's on fire.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

We're at war. I mean every day, dude.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

It it's and this is the solid rock war room. Yeah. So we just um made that official, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:30

Right, right. Yep. This is the war, this is the war room. There's no you know and there's no political correctness in here.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

We're overall This is not a safe space.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

No, it's not. So, but to answer the, I mean, try to answer the question. How do you how do you how do you set the thermostat instead of being a thermometer? How do you how do you how do you uh how do you set the temperature rather than I mean, how do you respond rather than react? How do you stay calm in the midst of all of that?

SPEAKER_00 14:53

I I I think to me it's very like I I I think like in very systematic ways, very systematic ways is the way that I process information and hopefully try and communicate. But um there's there's the the building's on fire, okay, and we have to we have to put the fire out one room at a time. So what does that look like in our world? It's like, hey, we know things are blowing up, things, some things are going good, some things are falling apart. We have to stay the course. We have a mission to accomplish, and that's to get two people to talk, get two, a great company and a great candidate to connect. It's not our job to get them hired. Our job is to get them to talk.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

That's it.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

And to hold, Lord willing, to find a great match that's going to be a benefit to the candidate and obviously a benefit to the company. So when all the chaos is going on, all of these things, and some of them are controllable, a lot of them are not controllable. It's to hyper focus on what we're doing today. What are we doing right now? And that's that's how you you that that's how you kind of keep the peace. That's how you keep the scales balanced, right? Because in this, in this world, it on the outside, it looks like, oh man, it can get unbalanced, you know, unbalanced really quick. And it's like, let's just keep it balanced. Let's let's hyper focus on what we're doing. And that is operating with honesty, integrity, and hustle, and getting two people to talk. And that balances out those scales. That puts the fire out.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

And it's really, and it's really a it's really a mindset, it's really a mindset shift, right? Yep. Um, it's it's uh I I attribute it, I attribute it to my uh to to my faith. I mean, I attribute it, I I attribute it to my my trust in in God. That of course that um that in the in the midst of all in the midst of all this, it says, it's it says, uh, it says in the scripture, Paul says, uh it says, be anxious about nothing, rather in everything pray. You know, and give thanks. So it's also kind of an attitude of gratitude. Well, I'm glad I'm in this situation because that that obviously means that something something something good is going to happen. Something is going to happen. I just have to persist. I have to be persistent and I have to be consistent and make sure I see it through to the end. Yep. And do everything in my power, which sometimes that's all I have in my power. Right. And that is to is to pray. Right. You know, you know, Paul says when when I am weak, I am strong. And so when when we feel like we've come to an end of end of ourselves, we're in a pretty good spot.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

Right. Well, well, you know, and and and that's really depending on, you know, um, you know, I don't want to speak like too universally on it, but like, you know, I think that's really dependent on who do you trust? Do you trust yourself or do you trust the Lord?

SPEAKER_01 17:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

And there is um one thing that my family, we you know, we do a Bible study every night, and like one of the prayers that we do is like we I pray that we be completely dependent on the Lord because our human nature, and this absolutely um boils into leadership. Our human nature wants to depend on ourselves for everything. We want to do everything, and it's not to say that we shouldn't do anything, no, like this is they call it it's a it's a it's an antinomy, it's both and right, do everything you can and trust in the Lord, right? Right? And it's not just do nothing and trust in the Lord, and it's not do everything and don't trust in the Lord, it's an intend, it's an antinomy, it's both. Yeah, trust in the Lord with all of your heart, soul, mind, and strength, but also get out there and work and do the best you can and work as hard as you possibly can at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

I love people in the Christian culture that uh when they've they've received a.

SPEAKER_00 18:26

Antinomy is a five-dollar word. You use that on a date, sign like like like it's done.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

Right. We we um we we have a we have a we have a clear command, right? Um, and in in scripture, and then somebody says, I want to pray about it.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

That's that that's an ex that's an excuse. Of course you want, of course you're going to pray about it. Of course you are. Yep. You know, but that doesn't mean that you don't take action, right? Um you might pray about Lord give me the strength, you might pray about, but not pray about if I'm gonna keep that command or not, right? Right. It's the same type of it's the same type of it's the same type of thought process that we're talking about right here is that we are action takers. Sometimes we take actions out ahead of thinking about them just because it seems like the right thing to do at the time. But we are we have to take we have to take action. Yeah, we have to make stuff happen. As leaders, we have to, we have to take action.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

Yeah, and I think like in our world of recruiting, like it's and one thing that you and I have obviously have learned over time is we know we like our roller coaster is like this. Yeah, like our roller coaster is like this, and that is like the hardest. Whether you're a a leader or an employee, whatever setting the thermostat. Right, that is the hardest thing to learn in any business for anything, even within your marriage. Like if your marriage is like this, it's like, all right, like like what we have learned, and this is a mental thing, but there's probably obviously a spiritual aspect to that as well. But um, that is one thing that I want to teach our recruiters is like, even when things are going wrong, how do you stay so even keeled and so focused, right? Because that is leadership. That is leadership. How do you set your own temperature to not be too up or too down, even when things are bad, even if they're bad at home or what? How do you how do you keep it like this, man?

SPEAKER_01 20:14

So let me ask so I'll ask you this question around that. So what habits protect that mindset?

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Yeah, I mean, I think um, you know, obviously good habits, right? Um, you know, it's we we talk about it every day, but like within the recruiting world, you and I know what those habits are. It's being hyper focused. I'm not gonna sit here and talk about KPIs, right? I don't really give a crap about KPIs. I like to talk a little above and beyond, like like the whys versus like versus like those specific things. But I think it's doing what needs to be done in order to get two people to talk, right? And then, but also like driving that process through, right? Because we do more than just getting two people to talk. We consult with them. We consult with the candidates, we help them get the best offer they can. We make sure that our company is protected, try and make our make sure our companies are protected from having one of our candidates take a counteroffer or waste their time. And so it's you know, we could talk for hours about the recruiting process in philosophy.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

That's and I and I don't want to talk about that. No, I know that. But you ask a question habits. What habits, what what do you do like on a daily basis to kind of protect that, to kind of protect that mindset uh around you? You I think you mentioned something earlier. For example, you have a habit, a daily habit or a daily ritual or whatever you want to call it, where you have family, where you have family worship time, right? You read the Bible, you pray together, you do these things. Those are habits that in my mind that protect mindset. Is there other habits that you have that that protect your protect your mindset?

SPEAKER_00 21:43

Within this company, you know, I think like because I might my my role has changed even the last like six months. I think the habit I so I don't it's hard to even like I don't know if I can arc and it's articulate that, you know, because I think I'm still building those, like what is what are those habits, right? So I don't I personally, you know, I personally don't know if I can answer. I've I think the big thing is making sure that I'm involved in for sure the closing process and sure and making sure that from a higher level that the thing like our companies that are over a barrel that have needs, making sure that those are being worked on. Um, you know, it's probably a good question. I need to probably sit down and put some thought into. So I don't, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

It's it's it's it's a good question. In my in my mind, so like so like some of the habits that I have on a daily basis, and I've I've I've written about this extensively, is is just a just the thing I just the same, I do the same thing. I I go through the same process everything, every single morning. I make a plan in the morning. A lot of people like making a plan in the evening. I don't care when you make a plan, I just make a I I just make a plan. I I don't necessarily write it down, I've got it memorized now to a point, but I do a certain thing in a certain order every single day. And people say, Well, how do you find how do you find this? How do you find these candidates? Well, because I've been doing the same thing every single day consistently. And when when something's not working, I I'm I'm I don't hold on to it so long that I, you know, I change it. If something's not working, I change it, right? But I have these habits that I do every single day just to get my day started every single day, right? And before I do anything, I'm reading my Bible, I'm I'm praying, I'm asking the Lord for guidance and for help because I know I need it.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

You definitely need it. I definitely need it.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

I definitely need it. But I do the same business habits every single day and and and make sure that there's a consistency.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Well, and I think that you know goes into leadership, right? Because like um you have to like to be a leader, and I'm not talking executive law, I'm just talking leadership, right? Like we've already you know discerned between those two differences. But I think you bring up a good point of like planning, preparing for battle, right? Whether you're a foot soldier or a or colonel, right? Like, like you those habits are gonna be a little bit different. That planning and preparing is gonna be different. But um, I think that it's a good point. Like if you just come to work and I don't know what I'm working on today, yeah. Well, you we'll we'll get you there, dude. Like now, now I know I just met with you saw me, I met with a couple guys this morning, and I'm like, dude, it's 8 45 or almost nine o'clock, and you're just kind of like getting your day planned out. Yeah, it's like let's, you know, so that's well, let's fix that. Yeah, let's fix that, dude.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Yeah, we can't we again we can't go back and get the parachute, but we can we can get started where we're at. Yeah, I mean, when when was the best time to plant a tree? 10 years ago. 20 years ago, right? 30 years ago, yeah. Alright, yeah. But but what when's the second best time? Today, yeah, right, you know. So um, so here's the thing. You've been you've been in this battle for a decade. 11 years. 11 years, just over a decade.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Um no gray hair yet, dude. And right, you know, the only time my wife found gray hair was when we were up in Canada.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

I was at the airport and I had three gray hairs about there.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

That would stress anybody out there.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

It was, it was weird. I was at the airport too. I'm not kidding, I was at the airport. So so how I mean I was in Regina.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Yeah. Saskatchewan. Yep. That's a great, that's a great, great place. Anyway, um, I look forward to becoming our 51st state. Um, how do you stay in the fight?

SPEAKER_00 25:09

Just Alberta. I mean, it's just the province of Alberta. I don't want yeah, I don't want we'll take Alberta. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

How do you stay in the fight for decades, though? I mean, how how do we how how in the world could you do? We were just told that we're in the top eight percent of podcasts because we just did episode 10. Now we're on episode 11.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Yep, and we're going for the top 1% if we make it to 100, right? So we'll do that, boys. It's good income for you guys. But how do we good steady income?

SPEAKER_01 25:32

How do we how do we stay? How do we stay doing it? I mean, how in the world do you stay doing it?

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Dude, I, you know, I love it, man. I mean, for for me, it's different. You either love or you hate recruiting. And um, I'm kind of like you. If I wasn't recruiting, I'd probably be bagging groceries, but how do I do it first and foremost? I love it, and I feel like this is my calling in life. So that's first and foremost. But also like like we um, dude, it's just it's I I I have no other option. Even if I did, even if I won the lottery, nothing would change. Right. Nothing, nothing, I mean, things you wouldn't know, things would change, you know. There'd be a couple changes, but I don't know how do you say in it for a decade, man. I think when you find your heart's when you find your heart's passion, right, you find you find the calling where where the Lord has put you. Because I think work is a spiritual, like work is is supposed to be spiritual. And um how do you do it? For me, it'd be the harder question is how would I not do it? Right. That would be the harder question.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

Great, that's a great question. Now, so I mean I mean, we're we're kind of coming to an end of this podcast. So the reality is, is at the end of the day, and I've seen this happen to you, you've seen it happen to me. I mean, what do you do when you become exhausted when you've done everything when you've done everything that you think you're doing?

SPEAKER_00 26:47

I go home and hang out with the family.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Yeah, yeah. Is that what recharges you?

SPEAKER_00 26:51

Yeah, just disappear.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

That's what that's what I do. I mean, yeah, that you know, like I've been in this game for so long, like you have to know when to let off the gas. You have to let you have to know when that engine's running on. Yeah. So everyone has different outlets, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:03

But I'm on my lawn.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

Yeah, yeah. Some people do that, some people go golfing, some people go, I'm gonna go down to Florida. Well, whatever. I don't, you know, like for me, it's so simple. Now, I will tell you, like, I'm getting to the point now where I don't even really have to like like separate. Right. Because it's just when I get home now, depending on the day, but like it's like even like balancing that has just been like so much easier. Like, I'm not a workaholic by any stretch of the imagination, but I love being here. I love doing what we're doing to where it's like, I don't feel like I have to like go find something to like do that. But now early on in this career for your first five, six, seven, eight years, you still might have to do that.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Well, to close this out, I want to I want to ask that I want to ask that question. So you're here 10 years, you're you're you're older, wiser, etc. What would you tell the Sean Bowen of 10 years ago that that you you know now that you wish you knew then?

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Yeah, I think um I think I would have just said develop an animal mindset sooner. It took me like two years. Like, I mean, I I was doing all the things, but I would like I would have just like locked in sooner, and maybe I would have diversified into a couple other industries a little sooner. Um you know, I mean, like I I'm not like I just I go back to my early days often in my mind because like I know what it takes. And even with exper we've got experienced recruiters here, man, that are starting over. And those guys to me are day one recruiters, right? Those guys are day one. It's like, dude, I've been there, bro. I've you and I, we've built industries, we've built shit. And it's like, so yeah, if I could go back 10 years from now, like I would have said, dude, get that get that business owner mindset, that animal mindset a little bit sooner and diversify a little bit more. Oh, and start up a company, start up a company sooner. I should have recruited up in Canada when I had that non-compete. I should have done it.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

Should have said, screw it, I'm gonna leave and you know, but yeah, I'm just kidding, kind of like I yeah, but I mean, and and that's what and that's what we often say to people is that even when they're considering coming over to coming over to come work for us, it's you're gonna be you're gonna be starting over, but it's gonna be the hardest thing you've ever done. I don't think you're gonna do it. But it's a it's a revival of the uh dude.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

It's a revival of the spirit of recruiting, man.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Yeah, it is, it is. It's it really.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

And we're gonna be gonna get some recruiters on our podcast.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Well, at some point we will get some recruiters on our podcast for sure. But for now, this has been the Built on Solid Rock podcast. We're sponsored by Dean's Wien's. If you haven't had a Dean's Ween yet, you gotta get one. I mean, wherever they're wherever their pop up is going on, you gotta get Dean's Wiens. Peace out.