AI Can Read Resumes, It can't read People

AI Can Read Resumes. It Can’t Read People.

Built on Solid Rock Podcast – Episode 5

Artificial Intelligence is everywhere right now.

In recruiting, it’s changing the game—faster searches, automated outreach, resume screening in seconds. What used to take hours now takes minutes.

And that’s a good thing.

But here’s the truth we talk about in Episode 5 of the Built on Solid Rock Podcast:

AI can read resumes.
It can’t read people.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey, this is the Built On Solid Rock Podcast. Welcome. My name is John Chisholm. My compadre over here, Sean Bowen. You know what? I'm just hoping on one of these episodes I can introduce. Well, you can. You have to you have to go to radio school to be able to do that and have a voice for radio. I've got a face for radio, so well, that's good to know. So what's going on today? Well, today I today I just something's really been bugging me lately. And uh just before I ask you, before I introduce this, are are you AI or are you are you real? I am a real person. I I have I have just been I I've I've owned lots of businesses. I've I've I've been in I've been around for I've been around for a while. And uh I I I used to let me just put it this way, I used to carry around when I would go out, when I own an insurance agency, I'd go out on appointments and I would carry around a 40-pound computer. Wow. The laptop was heavy, okay, big battery on it. And over my shoulder I had a 20-pound phone. It had a battery pack attached to it. It was crazy. And even back then, when we when when I was writing out all of my applications on triplicate in triplicate, I mean, we had to write a car application. We had to do it via pen and paper, and it had to be filled out in triplicate. I don't even know what triplicate is. We had to send one of the copies to the insurance agency. I've heard a duplicate, I never heard of triplicate. Triplicate, three copies. Yep. Copy for the insured, copy for my office, and copy for the insurance office as an application for insurance. And of course, we had to send these things in on a daily basis. We didn't have ACH, we didn't have any of those things. That people actually had to physically write a check, and I had to take that check and I had to put it into an escrow account, which was swept by my business on a daily basis. I mean, there's a whole bunch of things, but we did have computers, right? The computers were slow, they were they were, you know, based in DOS DOS, which is an old communication system that they use. I mean, they literally, we literally had floppy disks. They they they were floppy, okay? Anyway, that that all that is all to say this. We have right now in in the world where we're lots of people are talking about AI. And in the recruiting world, in the business world, AI can be a huge, a huge boon. But a lot more people are talking about, they're saying, man, AI is gonna replace me. They're gonna it's gonna replace my job, it's gonna replace my, you know, uh I'm gonna become just a couch potato.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

I'm gonna become a floppy disk.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Right.

unknown 2:40

Right.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Or a or a battery or whatever. Yeah. So yeah, go back to the matrix. I mean, as far back as I can remember, when we had computers back then, we believed when the internet first came out, we actually believed as insurance agents, we believed that we were gonna be replaced, that we were gonna be our our jobs were gonna become unnecessary. Somebody else, the computer, could write out the applications for them and the and the policies.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Well, see, I look at I look at AI and we'll we'll kind of get to that, but um where you're going with this, and there's obviously a lot of fear, right? Anytime that there's technological advancement in society, whether it's going from you know, plowing your fueled with horses to uh having a gas-powered engine, I'm sure that um there was a lot of fear with farmers and labors and you know, uh with factories and all the advancement in that. And but you know, there was an interesting story I had a friend share with me um about, and I don't know if you've heard about this, but you've heard of Reddit. Oh, yeah. I don't know if a guy like you has heard of Reddit Reddit before. Yeah, you know, I've heard of Reddit, yeah. But there was a big article on there how some candidate went, I don't know, maybe it's two or three interview processes, they were getting interviewed only to figure out the person interviewing them, the recruiter HR, whoever it was, it was an AI person. You know, it was an AI person. And and these things happen, right? You're not saying it's not fake news, right? I mean, no, no, this is real.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

It's just a fake, it's a fake person. It's a fake person, but it really happened. Okay. So what happened? I mean, tell me, tell, tell me more.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Well, I don't know the whole story, but I just know that that there's a lot of this. I mean, I was actually at a at a recruiter's meeting locally here in Sioux Falls, another recruiting firm owner. Um, his firm was interviewing a candidate, and um, they were doing a video interview, and it wasn't until the second interview, true story, because I heard him tell it to me. It wasn't until the second interview that the person that they were interviewing was uh it looked like a real person, but it was all driven by AI. So it's probably some other dude in a whole nother country was interviewing for a highly technical role. That's where I think you see a lot of this stuff happening at in these, like in the IT world, highly technical fields. But um, so it's not just happening, you know, you hear about on the hiring side, right? Where people are sending their resumes in and AI is like scrub, you know, scraping them and people aren't getting highly qualified, people aren't getting interviews. There's I know right now there's some major lawsuits going on with this, but it's also happening on the candidate side where where people are literally building AI uh people. I don't even know what do you call them? You know, you've seen the videos, right? Uh yeah, uh yeah. I mean, yeah. They're literally building AI people to do video video interviews with.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Have you ever seen anything like that? Or what what's I've uh I've not I've not seen anything like that. I mean, I think that I think that AI can do a lot of things. I think it's advantageous advantageous for a lot of things. But one thing that and and and that and this is really what I what what I want to interact with you about is is AI going to replace us? Is AI gonna replace recruiters?

SPEAKER_01 5:44

Well, when you categorize us, no, do I think it's gonna here's what I think it's going to do. AI is going to replace bad recruiters. I truly believe that, uh, to an extent, to a level of extent. And here's here's the reason here's kind of the reason uh for that is that we use AI every day in our business. Um AI has increased our workflow. We're still um learning how to use it, but AI is going to help the good recruiting firms, the good recruiters expand their business. So maybe instead of having 50 recruiters and only 25 of them are really good, you know, you can you can probably scale down a little bit because your existing good recruiters that learn how to use it, that learn how to implement it, that learn how to integrate it into their workflows and all of those things, um, it's going to make them better. Just like when job postings first came out. I worked at another recruiting firm that was around for a long time, and and they were in the days where you'd go right and get the numbers out of the phone book. And then when the job boards came out, that was a big thing. Oh, recruiters are going to get uh wiped out, right? Wiped off the planet because now you can just post a job out there. We already, we just talked about how that works. You know what happened was is that that actually made the recruiting firms more profitable because now they have more tools and resources to get out there and and get qualified candidates or unqualified candidates, right? Um, so do I think to answer your question, it's hard to answer. Do I think it's gonna wipe out the industry? No, it's going to make the industry more competitive, it's going to make the good recruiters better, and it's going to make the bad recruiters worse.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

And as we've talked about in other episodes, I mean, we get we get advertisements all the time. We get, you know, in you know, from vendors, they want to they want to sell us their product. And one I have actually received from from um several different vendors this idea that and why they would sell it to a recruiting firm, I don't know. This idea that of AI recruiters, actual, I mean, when you say AI recruiters, they they they make up fake profiles on LinkedIn and and they use those recruiters to send messages, uh, you know, in mail messages and personal mail messages to a bunch of different, to a bunch of different people, and they can do that 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, and you're interacting with it with an AI, an AI person. And we've talked about this with our honesty and integrity. We don't we don't post fake job postings, and we don't have fake, we don't have fake recruiters or AI AI recruiters. Um, but talk about that a little bit more. Companies are getting tempted right now to make their hiring processes a little bit more efficient. Companies are actually using AI to scrape resumes or to or to uh screen resumes. They're able to you know go through a thousand resumes, you know, almost immediately to try to find a good why why should why should they use somebody like somebody like us?

SPEAKER_01 8:48

I think this gets down into like versus AI. And here's the thing, I don't want to shut, I don't want to turn any anybody away from using AI in general. If you're getting a thousand resumes, um I don't I personally don't deal with any companies. I don't think our organization deals with any companies that are getting a thousand resumes for a job, but I know it happens out there, but use a thousand or fifty. AI can be good to use to scrape that resume if you're if those um if what you put in for it to read is good, right? But this gets more into the philosophy of what is hiring. Okay, what is hiring? I think hiring is a is strictly I don't know, maybe strictly is a strong word, but hiring is a human what's the word I I want to use for this? It requires human interaction for the for the best results. It does. And um, there's just something about hiring and talking to people that you can never get away from. You know what I mean? Looking them in the looking them in the eye. That's why there's still insurance agents around. I just called my insurance agent three days ago. Okay. That's why I still I have an atter, we have an attorney, we have um um doctors, we have uh all these professional levels, we have a payroll person, right? Like there is something I think that is built within each human, you know, we and we are made in the image of God where where where we desire human interaction. Okay. Now, of course, you have your stragglers out there who go who go live out in the mountains by themselves, and that's fine. But a large majority of the population actually still likes to talk to each other, and that will never change because we are made in the image of God. We see this all throughout scripture where look look how the apostles uh built the church and spread the good news of the gospel. How was that done? That was done by talking, interacting with people, and so like this is like a God-ordained thing that every human has. And when you bring that into hiring or talking to somebody or interviewing them, um, why the hell would you want to interview at a company that has an AI hiring authority or has an AI, you know, screener? You wouldn't. You no reasonable person would sit there on an interview knowing that it was ran by AI and go take a job there.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

That's the reality. Again, I just want to bring it back, bring it back around. I agree 100% with what you said. I don't know if you read that somewhere or or if you heard it from me, probably heard it from me. Oh no, don't put that on there. I only wish that she could see him off screen. That's that's such that's that's uh that yeah, don't put that on there. That's that's such a look, that's such a look.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

I do have the ability to come up with some good ideas every now and then.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

Yes, I yes. But but AI is is not gonna replace recruiters, but it's gonna replace bad recruiters because I agree with you wholeheartedly. The human, the human aspect of recruiting, the human aspect of hiring is urgently important is urgently important. Unless, of course, you're hiring AI. If if if that's what you're doing, then interview AI with AI, and you'll you'll hire really, really good AI. If you want to hire a good human, you've got to have good human interaction skills. And that's part of the part of it's all part of it's the interview process, part of it's the screening process, part of it's all that. But a good recruiter, a good hiring manager can go in and can actually be a much more effective screener. They won't be able to go through 50, 50 resumes in an in an hour.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

And if you're going through 50 resumes, you should probably call us. There's no reason why you should have that many resumes. Right. You know, because 99% of them, if not 100% of them, are not even qualified.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Well, and we're but we're bringing we're what we bring to the table, what recruiters bring to the table for candidates as well as for companies, is we are ultimately a time-saving measure. We take the time to call the candidates. We take the time to pre-screen them so that when the resume lands on your desk, it's already been pre-screened. It's already had um, it's already had the questions that you want to ask before a candidate even lands on your desk have already been have already been asked.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

Yeah. I mean, and and you know, here's the thing. AI, um, generally speaking, is not going to replace a lot of industries. I think it's going to change a lot of industries. And, you know, when when we look at the recruiting business, I've seen this for a while. And um what AI is doing in our business, and and you and I, and and corporately as a company, we can do a bunch, a much, much better at um integrating AI into, I guess I call it our workflow, our systems, our processes. And um, that's where AI is gonna have a large impact on a lot of these businesses, but that doesn't remove, you see, so integrating that across all of our workflows, that doesn't remove the human interaction with our own recruiters. That doesn't remove our interaction with our clients or our candidates, but it makes it more efficient. And so one thing, and I kind of uh preface this a little bit before the episode uh started, and I think we're gonna be a little bit ahead of the curve on this, um, is that solid rock recruiting is gonna be hiring uh an AI integrator for a summer internship, right? So somebody, because right now, if you look at um a lot of the state colleges in South Dakota, they all have AI uh programs. Some of them have certificates. I think some of them have four-year degrees because AI is um is it's its own industry now, right? It's no different than uh, you know, it's its own industry where colleges are bringing in extremely intelligent people who um are teaching students how like what does a future workflow workforce look like? So one thing that I'm doing right now behind the scenes is actually looking at how can we integrate AI into our company? What does that look like? So um so just I'll put a little plug in here. So if you go to school somewhere in South Dakota, if you live in the Sioux Falls area and you're looking for uh an amazing opportunity at working with a a startup recruiting firm, we're way ahead of our time. I bet there's no other, I bet that there's no other recruiting firm in the country right now of our size who is even considering hiring an A an AI integrator. That's the direction we're going because we want we want to integrate it fully into our workflows from the from from financials to our CRM to database to uh to managing, it's even to better, how can we better manage our our clients? Like there's there's ways that we can integrate AI into um how do the candidates we talked to two years ago, we can integrate AI and how we come across them. So I'm gonna put this plug in, then I'll give it back to you as that we are looking at hiring an AI intern. You're gonna have the full authority to come into a really sweet office. We have a golf simulator, a sweet coffee machine, we do a podcast, the whole nine yards to fully integrate AI into our company.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

That is the future. So so bringing it back around again, also to recruiting. He says bringing it back around all the time. I want to, well, I do. I want to bring it, I want to, I want to, I want to close that, I want to close that circle. Yeah. What I I believe what sets us apart is is again, and we talked about this in many podcasts, is asking the right questions. AI can be trained to do a lot of things. You you put prompts into AI and they and they come back with, you know, they come back with an answer. They do a lot of research immediately and instantly, and we all know how it works. But what sets us apart, what sets recruiters apart, good recruiters, good recruiters, is asking the right kind of questions. For example, when you look at a resume, I'm able to we're we're pretty much able within our industry to look at a resume and fairly quickly determine if the person has the hard skill set required that we would want that we would want to talk to them. That saves us, that saves us time. So, for example, if we're if we're hiring a drywall project manager, we don't want an IT project manager. It can say project manager all over the resume, but but they're they're working in IT. It's not construction, it's specifically not drywall construction.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Yeah, but you could program you could program that to cancel out, just like we can do on Zoom Info or LinkedIn Recruiter. You can put in you you you can actually AI can from from from a resume standpoint, actually can do a really good job at take away.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

We can do a good job of that, but still, we AI cannot cannot catch from looking at a from looking at a resume, they can find those little they can find those little I think it absolutely can. So what you're saying is is that the recruiter asking the right kind of questions from that resume, you're saying that saying that asking the right kind of questions is not is not what? It's not what valuable.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

I'm not saying that it's not valuable. I'm talking AI can read a resume. Yeah. AI can articulate that. Where I think you're going with this though, it's not so much about the skill set that they have. Because if it's on their resume, I think you can program AI to read what is on the resume and to understand, okay, like so. For example, I could take a resume and I can run that through Chat GPT, and I can say, hey, here's this person has worked at three different companies in the last 10 years. Give me a summarization of each company they've worked at. So it can tell me what what type of company. Oh, is it a drywall company? No, it's not a drywall company, it's uh it's a building materials, you know, building materials supply company. But here's what AI can't do, okay? Because I I would so I don't want to push too hard against you, but I am. But AI can do those things, but here's what AI can't do AI cannot uh experience empathy. AI cannot fully comprehend the same way that a human can of why of why you as a candidate have to move back to Ohio because because your mother is aging and it's and it's important, right? Now AI might can you know like it doesn't have the human understanding of that, right? Uh AI doesn't have the a robust understanding, like why, even like let's say if you're not looking, AI would not have the ability, and I've talked to vendors on this recently.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

They would have to have they would have to have the resume to be able to understand if you are looking. Yeah, but AI you're still getting you're still getting the leftovers.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

Well, no, just because you have a resume doesn't even mean you're looking, right? So AI does not have the ability to fully comprehend why you're why you're not necessarily looking, but why you would be open to something. You know what I'm saying? So so from a resume standpoint, AI can read a resume really good if you if dep depending on what your inputs are, 100% agree. But it cannot connect with you as a human and understand those circumstances, some of them that I just mentioned, of why or what would specifically cause you to make a change.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

But also what a what AI can't do, and I think this is the point I was trying to make, although I stumbled all over it, is that AI cannot possibly cannot possibly in my mind not just the empathy and everything else, but ask the right kind of questions, you have to have the resume in the first place. So like so like if I've got a stack of fifty That's exactly what I just said. I know. But if you got a stack of 50, I know what that's what she said. If you got a s if you got a stack of 50 resumes, yes, they can go through and they can and they and and they can spit out spit out the resumes. I I I I say that you have to garbage in, garbage out. If you don't have the right kind of questions in there, if you don't have the right standards in there, you're gonna miss you're gonna miss something. But what what they can't do, what a what an AI recruiter can't do, which is why they're gonna replace bad recruiters. Totally. They're gonna they're they are gonna replace some HR departments. Yep. Because you know, sometimes HR, all they're doing is just scanning resumes. That's all they're doing.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Well, and sometimes the HR departments are just worried about DEI. Yeah. You know what DEI stands for, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Uh I I I'm I'm I'm sure didn't earn it. Right. So let me let me let me bring this back, let me bring this back around, okay? So so why I believe that we're not going to be replaced by AI, why we are not going to be replaced by AI is because we know the value of actually talking to people. We know the value of ask actually asking good questions that determine why is it that you want to go to Ohio? I've got an aging mother that wants to live up, you know, that that I want to go be next to. Why is it that you why is it that you're making a change? What would cause you to make a change? In order for AI to scan a resume, they have to have a resume. The most of the we don't just receive resumes. What we do is we go out and find good candidates. And that's what sets us apart as a good recruiting firm. Now, a lot of these recruiting firms are out there also. They make these fake they make all these fake profiles so that they could have inbound activity. They just reach out to as many people as they possibly can. So that they can create inbound activity. But again, that also can be time wasting.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

So my my brother, um, he's a CFO at a at a large company, um, really good company, and he just sent me a text message, it was two days ago, and he got an email, and it was um it was a Gmail account, it came from a Gmail account, it's from it's from a fake recruiter, and this person was emailing him, okay, and it was a fake, I don't know if it was an AI thing, I don't know if it's just like some guy, you know, some fake recruiter, but my brother was like asking it basic questions about the role, and the guy's like, you know, I'm assuming it was a guy, I don't know if it was, I have no idea, but the guy was just like there's no AI does not have gender. Well, yeah, I'm trying to explain that to my kids right now.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

Um uh AI would be a good DEI hire, then I guess, right? Well, there are two genders, but maybe AI is a third gender because there is no gender. Yeah, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

But um, but it was a complete like it just gives you like an example. Like my brother's like, no, give me some information about the job. And this uh this fake recruiter was just like, no, I'm not gonna give you anything. I just need your resume. You know what I mean? And and and I don't know if it was AI or not, but you see that a lot.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

And and that's what they want. They want that, they want that resume because because they're not interested about you as a human being or what what the reasons are that you would make a change.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

And now they can take that resume, then they can create fake interviews with that type of background. It's gonna get crazy out there. And this is where this is where talking to someone live on the phone, listen, any reasonable person you can get on the phone and after about five to ten seconds, you can tell if it's a real person or not. I mean, if you're questioning it after five seconds, you're probably not a very reasonable person.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Or or or else a person on the other end is an accountant.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

Is what an accountant. An accountant.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Oh, yeah. I was gonna say a boomer. Whatever, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:59

The point being in bringing it all bringing it all together, putting a nice little bow on it, is that what the value that a good solid recruiter is and brings is asking good questions, agitating insight to find out why a candidate might make a change or why a company might need to make a good, might need to make a hire, and what a good hire would be for that company. AI can't possibly do that. You can put all the prompts you want in there, but if you if you again, if you want to hire AI, use AI and hire. But if you want to hire a good, solid human being that is going to bring value to your company that's going to either save you money or make you money, you need to hire a good recruiter, an industry-specific recruiter. And so, um whereas you're bringing in this AI integrator, you're not integrating AI to replace recruiters, are you?

SPEAKER_01 24:52

Yeah, we just had a live listener uh uh phone in a question here on the live stream. Oh I'm just kidding, we don't have a live stream yet. Not yet. Was it an AI question? I don't know if it was an AI generated question, but the question was can a person be found without LinkedIn? If they don't have a LinkedIn profile, can they be found without a LinkedIn profile? The that look the answer is absolutely yes. We will find you. If you have a if you have a Rolodex, no listen, listen, listen, listen. We will find you, we will hunt you down, and we will recruit you. I don't care if you have a LinkedIn profile or not, look at me, we will find you and we will hunt you down because you're the type of person that I know we could absolutely place. And you're the type of person we could probably get a really big raise. Uh, we had a guy that we placed last year, he's making $90,000. He had no LinkedIn, no, no social networking profile. We got him an offer at $135,000 plus I think it's $20,000 to 30,000 in bonuses. Didn't have a if you don't have a LinkedIn profile, that's fine, I get it. But you're shortchanging yourself. But if you don't have one, we're gonna find you.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

Something, yeah, something, something else that something else that handcuffs bad recruiters and handcuffs AI is just the initiation that you take to go out and find the right kind of people. So like if you if we have if we have ABC construction company out there that needs a project manager in Timbuktu, Oregon, right? We have the we have the resources that we don't just quit at LinkedIn. We we have other resources that we that we use and we take the initiative to go out, like you said, and find that person. So like we would find 10 other companies that do what ABC to construction does, and we would Don't Don't give away all the secrets. We would whip out the Rolodex. Yep, the Rolodex. There we go. We got the Rolodex, we whip that thing out. We would whip out whatever we need to whip out. The yellow pages. Did the yellow the UI does yellow pages even exist anymore?

SPEAKER_01 26:53

It does, but it's probably I'm sure the stock prices are way down. Regardless of the war with Iran, the stock prices for yellow pages are way down. But I bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran. Bum bum bum bum bum bum bum. But uh I just did this uh yesterday. This is old school recruiting. This is what AI can do. I called up uh one of my buddies uh in the Chicagoland area. Um, great guy. He's in the in one of the industries we work in. I called him up, boom. You know, he saw Sean Bone and Solid Rockers Recruiting calling me. Boom, answers like maybe one, maybe two rings. I he almost answered before it even rang. And um I'm not kidding you. We had a 10-minute conversation, and out of that conversation, guess how many referrals I got? Four. I got four referrals out of that one conversation. That's a pretty impressive guess. Four referrals. So there's the other thing. That's what AI can't do in recruiting. AI, you AI cannot possibly call this guy who's an absolute stallion. And if you watch someday, you know, you know, you know who you are. He's an absolute stallion. I just said, dude, I I I need help. Here's the positions I'm trying to fill. I need help. Boom, names, numbers, booms, names, numbers. I mean, AI can't do that. You know, so there's just another, but that that's the thing. I I think I'm a relatively good recruiter. I have a lot of room to grow in that, but that's just one example, you see. Let me ask you a question.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

If if AI creates a recruiter, are they gonna name him Sean Bone?

SPEAKER_01 28:21

If we can figure out a way to mimic me in a recruiting platform, that would be quite interesting. But yeah, sure. I mean, if uh if uh if Elon, if you're listening, if you want to get into the recruiting game, I've been telling you for years you need to buy LinkedIn Recruiter or LinkedIn because uh uh what's the guy's name? Well, he was on the Epstein Files. One of the founders of LinkedIn is on the Epcine Files. It's all true. Look it up. We don't have to cut that out. But if Grok, if you want to start up an AI uh recruiting platform, I'm here. I can consult pro bono. Pro bono.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

Yeah, but we're gonna want a little bit on the back end.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

Okay, yeah, we'll talk. Okay, it's not in it's not in writing yet.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

Okay, we'll we'll negotiate. Yeah. All right. Well, this is John Chisholm. Sean speaking for Sean Bone. This is the Built on Solid Rock Podcast. We are not sponsored by Chat GPT or AI in any way, shape, or form. We're real. We're we're here for you, and uh we'll look for you in the next episode. Thanks for now.